Firstly I would like to address all of those who wish to comment on the “blind faith” of the Bible. Please read this post before you comment about how clueless I am and how I will come to faith in anything to make me “feel better about life”.
In a conversation with a non-believer (but a seeker nonetheless), he brought up that he had found articles that the story of Jesus could have been derived from the story of Horus. On top of the fact that these stories of Horus could have been stolen from the writings of the Old Testament and used by Satan to say that the messiah had already surfaced, he wanted more of an explanation for the similarities. All you have to do is google Horus & Jesus to see the claims being given that the story of Jesus is just a recycled version of the myth of Horus. Here is one such link making claims with nothing to back it up, but you know, people will believe just about anything they read as long as it proves what they want.
On my google search to find something to counteract these claims, to show him that people will lie and make up things, I came across a man who had done some interesting research on the origin of these claims. Just so you know, he does NOT appear to be a Christian. That debunks anyone trying to say that it’s just a Christian making counter claims for the sake of trying to end this myth. Here is the link, although I am not recommending this blog to everyone. The name of the blog is not very nice, let alone some of the other language there. Though, if you are an adult, i’m sure you can handle it. We handle it everyday in society. Anyway, on to the article:
I’ve heard repeated here several times that Horus, an Egyptian god, is carbon copy of Jesus. The obvious implication by those that have made this statement is that Jesus is a copycat version of an earlier Egyptian deity. The purpose of this entry is to disembowel that proposition once and for all. When I first heard that Horus was the inspiration for Jesus several years ago, I didn’t give it much credence because I couldn’t establish any source material for the claims. I still can’t, but the internet is as adept at allowing anybody and everybody to pass on misinformation.
Upon further research, I’ve concluded that this theory originated with Gerald Massey, an English poet, born 1828, died 1927. He published primarily poems, but had an interest in Egypt. He parlayed that interest in Egypt into several books and lectures in which he set forth the proposition that Horus was in essence the first Jesus, and Jesus was a cheap imitation. The primary basis for his writing is the Egyptian Book of the Dead. This is available on-line and you can easily look it up to read it yourself. Be forewarned that forced reading of this would be an extremely efficient form of torture.
It should be noted that Massey’s actual proposition was that Jesus was a copycat from more than just Horus. According to Massey, Jesus was a compilation of an innumerable number of Egyptian deities. There were over 2,000 deities who had every human and godlike characteristic one can think of, excepting Superman’s power to stop a speeding bullet.
Since Massey, there is a dearth of anybody with any credentials that has adopted a straight Horus=Jesus theory. There is a one individual that has adopted some of Massey’s thoughts and incorporated them into a book-The Christ Conspiracy. This appears to be the basis for the claims that I see. The author is Acharya S. Her website is http://www.truthbeknown.com I note that Richard Price, a noted Christ Myther, and one that I take much more seriously then Acharya, said the following:
“Those of use who uphold any version of the controversial Christ Myth theory find ourselves immediately the object not just of criticism, but even of ridicule. And it causes us chagrin to be lumped together with certain writers with whom we share the Christ Myth butt little else…..
His other criticism, like mine, is that she uses very dated sources (19th Century) who were in Price’s words “eccentrics, freethinkers, and theosophists.”Les, I am using your post from 1/3/05 as an example of the claims because you carry more credibility than most. That said here are the claims and what I have found:
Claim #1-Horus and Jesus are born from a virgin.
Horus’s mother is Isis. Isis was married to Osiris. We do not know for what length of time, but presumably the marriage was consummated. Whether it was or wasn’t doesn’t matter though. After Osiris is killed, Isis puts him back together again (he was hacked into 14 pieces) except for his penis which was tossed in a river or a lake. Iris fashions a substitute penis for him, humps him and here comes Horus. There is nothing virginal about that.
Claim #2-Both Horus and Jesus were born to a Mary and Joseph. (Seb)
As noted Isis is Horus’s mother’s name not Mary. In addition, Seb is not Horus’s father, Osiris is. Seb is Osiris’s father. Further, Seb is a distinct name from Joseph. Putting them side by side does not make them synonyms, and that appears to be what was done here.
Claim #3-Both were born of royal descent.
This is accurate.
Claim #4-Both births were announced by angels and witnessed by shepherds.
I can find nothing that mentions that the birth of Horus was announced by an angel or witnessed by shepherds. I have found that Horus was born in a swamp, which is a pretty unlikely place for shepherds. In addition Acharya mentions that Horus was born in a cave. Massey makes no mention of this, although he does represent that Mithra was born in a cave.
Claim #5-Both were heralded by stars and angels.
There is no star that heralded Horus’s birth nor is there any angel announcing it. Archarya in a footnote in The Origins of Christianity indicates that that there are three stars named the three kings in Orion and then relates this to the birth of Jesus. When we look to the stories regarding Horus, we find no star or angel announcing his birth. To the extent that Acharya S relies upon Massey and Massey relies upon what is depicted in the panels at Luxor see (from an atheist) further regarding virgin birth and pronouncement by angels http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/carrier_luxor_inscription.htm
Claim #6-Both had later visitors (Horus-3 deities and Jesus-3 wisemen.)
There is no indication that there ever were 3 wisemen. The bible never mentions the number of wisemen, nor is there any document that reflects 3 deities at the birth of Horus. See the website referenced in Claim #5.
Claim #7-Both had murder plots against them.
There is mention that Seth did want to kill Horus, and Herod wanted to kill Jesus. so this is accurate.
Claim#8-Both came of age at 12, were baptized and their baptizers were executed.
There is no indication that Horus was preaching in a temple when he was 12. In fact, Massey indicates that Hours the child was depicted as a “weakling.” That doesn’t jive with story of Jesus preaching in the temple. Again this appears to have been a confabulation from Acharya and repeated by others.
Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus stories. In addition, Acharya mentions that John the Baptist is actually Anup the Baptizer. This individual is never mentioned anywhere in any Horus account. There is not even a footnote in Archaya’s on-line work The Origins of Christianity to support this. There is nothing.
Claim #9-Both had 12 disciples.
According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers. There is some indication of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him. Horus did not have 12 disciples. Jesus reportedly did. Acharya failed to give a footnote to support this.
Massey points to a mural in the Book of Hades in which there are twelve reapers. Horus is not present in this scene. For Massey to make this connection he goes to a different scene within the same mural. In this scene there is a picture of a god whose name is the Master of Joy. Horus is never depicted although in other murals the artists do depict Horus. Had the artists ascribed 12 reapers in any relation to Horus all they had to do was put Horus at the scene. They did not.
Claim #10-Both walked on water.
Horus didn’t, or at least there is no record that I can find that he did. Massey does not maintain that Hours did. Massey uses wild conjecture to connect the story of fish man, Oannes, not Horus, to Jesus. Oannes came out of the sea during the day, and went back into the sea at night. Massey makes the two analogous because by his calculations, Jesus walked on water during the day.
As to Acharya, she as usual provides nothing to substantiate this.
Claim #11-Both performed miracles.
This is true although the miracles were different in scope and nature.
Claim #12 Both exorcised demons and raised Lazarus.
The actual claim is that Horus raised Osiris from the dead and that the name Osiris morphed to Lazarus. It doesn’t matter because Horus did not bring Osiris back to life. There is no mention of this in any document regarding the story. Horus did avenge Osiris’s death, but that did not raise Osiris from the dead.
Claim #13-Both held a Sermon on the Mount; both were transfigured on a mountain, died by crucifixion along with two thieves and were buried in tombs where they paid a quick visit to Hell and then rose from the dead after 3 days time, both resurrections were witness by women, and both will supposedly reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.
These are the most damning claims if they were proven true in my opinion. Yet, I can locate none of this. No sermon, no transfiguration, certainly no crucifixion w/ two thieves, no trip to hell and no resurrection. There was an incident in which Horus was torn to pieces and Iris requested the crocodile god to fish him out of the water he was tossed into, which was done, but that’s it. I am at a loss to refute this because I can not find anything to support it.
Massey does compares a story about the Autumn Equinox related to Osiris, not Horus, as the symbolic crucifixion. There is no indication that Horus is involved in any way. There is no mention by Massey of any Sermon on the Mount. No mention or any actual crucifixion, no two thieves, no burial in a tomb. Massey does not maintain that anything of the sort occurred with Horus.
In short, of the claims outlined in this entry, I find the comparison between Horus and Jesus to consist of the following: they were of royal descent, they allegedly worked miracles and there were murder plots against them.
How odd that this week I was having this same exact conversation. Thank you for taking time to post this infomation. It was well explained and will help me as I speak to my neighbor. I know that the word of God is a two-edged sword that will rightly divide, but it is nice to know a little background information when speaking with others
The bothersome thing is that it feels like you asume the bible is the true story, and feel compelled to make other things look bad.
Both egyptions or the bible was in english, and translation errors could have been made VERY easely. not only that, but when a story goes from person to person, alot of details get lost, added, missinterpretted.
Its a big mess. And offcourse unless i learn egyption myself i cant really know what is true or not about horus, but so far it doesnt seem to far fetched.
In the end. Even if the 2 storys have nothing to do with eachother, it doesnt make 1 or the other “real”. It just means people were more original then you thought
Why are there so many people in the world who can’t spell? Sometimes they even use the wrong word.
I am aware that the old testament was written Hebrew & Aramaic, and the new testament is all in Greek. Translations are really very close in the Bible, as we have Hebrew and Greek scholars to translate for us.
Yes I believe everything in the bible to be absolute truth (unless of course it is obviously stated as a story or parable). You would be a wonderful candidate to read ‘The Case for Christ’ by Lee Strobel, a former atheist that searched the evidence for Christ and the accuracy of the Bible.
You would do better to read “The Pagan Christ” by Tom Harpur.
A former priest and religion professor who was courageous enough to analyze the evidence and realize that
The contradictions in the bible are overwhelming, the most blatant being that God says he is love, yet tortures, murders, condones slavery, rape, sex slavery and smears dung on faces of people and curses and kills even those he says he loves. He says he is the same but changes. He says he doesn’t get jealous and then he says he’s jealous. He forbids human sacrifice and decides he can make an exception for himself. He is unforgiving, unless blood is shed, then he extends temporary forgiveness.
He violates all of characteristics of love as outlined in 1 Cor 13. I have never met or read about or heard about a human as evil as god in the bible.
I am wondering how much of your bible knowledge is stuff you have aquired from a book for atheist/God haters or how much of is actually from your own study of the Bible. I am very sorry that you feel that way, but the God of the Bible, My God, is not those things which you mentioned.
Where did you find the information on Horus?
I have read Tom Harpur’s book and am convinced that much of what he says is true. His outline of history, the simple truths that he outlines, and the precise examples he gives in the Bible make for fascinating reading. I’ve studies the Bible for over 35 years and finally things make sense. I don’t feel like I’ve abandoned my faith in God, I feel that I am more understanding of how God works in our world.
In summary, “Christ” is not less to me, he is “the full Chirst to the whole world.”
You can Google “Jesus and Horus” and get information. It is not just the story of Horus that is important, however. It is the overall themes and ideas that were obviously imported into Jewish and Christian thinking that made up our Bible. Tom Harpur’s book outlines some of the most important points and shows us the true meaning of “the Christ.” I have not lost my faith in God in reading this book, I have gain new insights in how God works in the world and how God gave us “the whole Christ for the whole world.”
Here is a site with a review, by Egyptologists, of Tom Harpur’s book’s claims. Seems like all of his work is based upon an element in Egyptology referred to as, “fringe nonsense.” Yes the site is Christian in nature, but the Egyptologists are not part of the site, just interviewed by it.
http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/na.cgi?nationalupdates/040623was
Satan has been disputing the Word of God since our first record of him.
He is still in the same business today…just using different props.
The believers of lies will one day know without a doubt God’s Word is true…God is sovereign…Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. There is no myth to the gospel.
Love is the true way:
1. The Annuncation
The god Thoth announces to a virgin, Isis, the impending birth of her son, Horus.
2. The Immaculate Conception
The god Kneph (Holy Ghost) and the goddess Hathor hold crosses, sign of life, to the head and nostrils of Isis and mystically impregnate
her.
There can’t be a son from Osiris, since his penis was cut and later replaced by the thing you mention.
4. The Adoration
The infant Horus receives homage from gods and Three Kings, the Magi, who offer him gifts.
Jackson cites Samuel Sharpe in Egyptian Mythology and Egyptian Christianity [London: J. R. Smith, 1879, p. 19.] thus:
In this [set of engravings] we have the Annunciation, the Conception, the Birth, and [the] Adoration as described in the first
and second chapter of Luke’s Gospel
Here’s the depiction of the birth of Horus:
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/b/b3/LuxorAmenhetep.gif
And this is not the only Deity born on December 25th that has crucification, death, 3 day period, and then ascention back into Heaven.
You don’t actually think that only Christianity has the same stories?
What about:
LUKE 22:10
And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
Who was this man other than the actual age of Aquarius?
I Believe in God, not white bearded man in heaven… but the organism which is the UNIVERSE, lie down and look at the sky, the stars, and hopefully you will see God, as I see it, everything!
In fact you need not to have eyes to feel the force around you.
You can’t actually believe that the world is 12 thousand years old!?
I will respect your believes, but that doesn’t mean that they are somewhat naive… but then God himself gave us free will, we call the other religions ”blasphemy” or ‘’satanic” only because they are different than your christianity?
As long as a religion teaches love and respect for others, for me that’s a good religion.
IT’S A SHAME THAT SO MANY PEOPLE ARE BLINDED BY FEAR.EVEN TO THE POINT WHERE WE CAN PICK UP A BOOK THAT TELLS A LIE ON THE VERY FIRST PAGE BUT WE STILL PUT OUR ABSOLUTE TRUST IN THE WORDS ABOUT GOD! HOW CAN PEOPLE SAY THAT THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD WHEN THE STORY OF CREATION HAS BEEN PROVE TO BE WRONG. IT’S OBVIOUS THAT THOSE THAT PUT THE BOOK TOGETHER DIDN’T HAVE ANY ILL INTENTIONS,JUST WANTED TO PROVIDE MANKIND WITH GUIDELINE FOR HOW WE SHOULD LIVE AND TREAT EACH OTHER. HETEP
“His other criticism, like mine, is that she uses very dated sources (19th Century)”
But your sources are first century so therefore more reliable. Good one. I would rather you defended your position by admitting it is blind faith and faith is what is important. There’s no point entering into scientific debate or arguing history of one vague source over another.
I’m going to have to go with the story of jesus being a phoney story because why is it that there are so many other religions with stories like Jesus’s? It’s too muich of a coincidence for the story of just Jesus to be real and all the others fake. Jesus is most likely sun worship continued in such a symbolic way as to mainpulate the masses into believing what’s pretty much impossible, to be possible. If anyone ever meets someone who can make the blind see or come back to life, let me know
As a former…”Christian”, I used to be gung ho about the Bible and that it was true. I recently found out about the various Jesus Myth but this was after my leaving the faith. What hammered me was the progression from the much older myths found in the world beginning with the Enuma Elish. The similarities between the creation story of the Enuma Elish and the ancient Hebrew text are unreal. O top of that, the Sheol that the ancient Hebrew believed in is conceptually the same as the Sumerian, Akkaidian, and Babylonian underworld. Also, the New Testament references the Apocrypha, which are supposedly uninspired, which tells me that the early Christians found those books to have been divinely inspired. The ancient Hebrew assigned El the planet Saturn, which in most ancient cultures is the planet assigned to the supreme god of first supreme god. Kronos for the Greek, An, for the Sumerian, and so on. It’s all of these things which caused me to believe that this was just a story. If you don’t believe me, the history books have all the information you need.
Silly Christians (and religious people, in general). Humanity, as whole, intrigues me with how they can place so much faith in an omnipotent being whose only sign of existence comes from a book, written by man, over thousands of years. The stories, written by men who never actually saw Jesus Christ, believed and taken so literally by so many people in the world today, make me laugh at the ignorant bliss that is modern day Christianity. The cold truth is that if people would put half as much faith in themselves as they do in some invisible being, the world would be a MUCH better place than it is. No more wars over “My god is right”, “My savior is going to come back to this spot”, “This land is more holy to ‘our’ people” or, my personal favorite, “You’re wrong because MY god said so”.
People in the world need to wake up and stop acting like Sheep. There doesn’t have to be an answer to everything.
Christianity exists for one reason people: way back when, 2500 something years ago, a buncha guys didn’t know how to explain weather patterns, floods, sickness, etc. So, they invent stories of good and evil, stories, like those you read to your child, very much like fairy tales, to pretty much cover why we are here, how we got here, who put us here, blah, blah, blah. Religion should die, for it gives people false hope and does nothing for our modern, progressive society. Religion is a weight, holding our civilization back, just like crime, money, energy deficiancy, and our inability to understand eachother are. religion is an invisible barrier, and it’s time for our society to destroy that barrier.
[...] Posts Ending the Myths of Horus & JesusCharles Spurgeon – Total DepravityAbout MeMy Deals this Week: Ortega, Zantac, Venus, & [...]
“people will believe just about anything they read as long as it proves what they want.”
you said these exact words in the beginning of this post so how come you have never applied that logic to your belief in the bible?
Jesus is an astrological figure representing the sun regardless of how many times you refute the speficity of individual mythologies the sheer volume of minor similarities between jesus christ and hundreds of other figures from mythologies all around the world, specifically figures that are known to represent the heavenly bodies or movements is staggering and the similarities arent novel ones. The similarities are always the fundamental things that link each character to astronomy.
But to put this in some context I do actually believe that jesus christ existed. I believe that he was a good teacher within the jewish community and that he wanted his people to be free of roman tyranny, but I believe everything that he taught was completely changed by St. Paul. Their is a wealth of historical evidence that shows that the Views of Christianity expressed by St. Paul after the death of jesus and the majority of gospel stories about jesus were edited, re-written or just completely made up and were definiately not the same things that jesus himself was teaching.
St. Paul took the persona of a charismatic leader and attached to it many universally recognised historical and astrological religious stories in order to create a power base in the ancient world. The bible according to Paul was then edited on at least four seperate occassions, which means the book that you take to be the the gospel today is not the word of god. It is the word of a greedy and power hungry ancient figure which has since been diluted by other greey, power hungry ancient figures.
Ask yourself this, If the bible is truly the word of god, why are there many hundreds of different and conflicting groups of christians?
i was thinking how could horus have been born on december 25th when there is no december in the egyptian calendar and do not say the dates are equivalent because they are not and also jesus was born in the spring not on december 25th does anyone who comments actually research their material also there is more reference in the bible of the badly translated term satan to support that satan works for god and not against god as in the book of job satan doesnt do anything god wont let the so called satan do also none of the gods i can find ever had the same or similar birthdays wtf is with this everyone was born on the same date nonsense and the virgin birth is not horus ask someone from egypt sheeesh!
here is something i think of zeitgeist being its very incorrect on a lot of items. what i think is that zeitgeist is an experimental project to see if anyone will actually research the material presented or will they just parrot the same incorrect info zeitgeist presents making it the true zeitgeist, almost like a kind of info paradox where it claims religion to be the zeitgeist but the film itself is the real culprit if you can understand what im saying here.
also the only place christianity had to look for a good story was the prophecies of the old testament which are thousands of years old mishra was not born of a virgin he just came to be also horus was before isis strangely enough she is also the mother go figure if u say this is wrong then i think you should show me with a credible source plz not some wanna be like the many others posted here religion is not evil its fun and intellectual i dont think someone should blame stories for the actions people take i mean people kill each other over stereos and shoes wtf and fight over something as trivial as a different perspective why not just play nice and be nice try not to hurt anyone and read all the religion you want like i do i luv religion and philosophy and ancient cultures i think there are profound messages which are hidden in ancient stories yet to be revealed and if all this propaganda of others saying theyre the same when they are all quite different with maybe a similarity here and there then those who want to know will miss out on some great interpretations of some old and really creative and sometimes historically accurate stories with some great things to say about life if you really research these things and quit reading peoples dribble youll see they are all very different the only thing the gods have in common is people called them gods see for yourself by researching longer than 10 mins on the internet which is full of garbage. put effort into it so you can really get to the good stuff, and whenever possible learn in the language it was written; coz the bible, forgive me as it was my first learned religion, is full of shit in english learn what the term commonly said as witch really was not someone who used herbs or alchemy but someone who deceived others. english is a poor substitute for ancient lang and religions. im willing to bet hardly anyone who reads that in english really knows much about it. dont get the new translations coz if you take me seriously and start learning for yourself youll see they are only getting worse. youll see things and ideas added which were never there just go do it im tired of writing this… later good luck.
enjoy reading, Thx to jordan, Zeitgest and the rest
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/luxor.html
I am an atheist, not a God-hater. I can’t hate that which does not exist. If any quality of mine can be likened to God-hating is that I utterly despise falsehoods and lies (which is religion). I love the truth, and by truth I mean nothing magical — I mean facts which are supported by science.
Sol, might want to keep the run-on sentences to a minimum. Your writing is hard to follow.
Sol said:
“i was thinking how could horus have been born on december 25th when there is no december in the egyptian calendar”
It doesn’t matter what the Egyptians called it. December 25 is traditionally recognized as the day when the days start getting longer after the winter solstice. It is celebrated as the birth of the sun (son – wink, nod). Also, it matters not that you *think* Jesus was born in the spring (I was taught it was 9/11, 3 B.C.). Nobody knows. Jesus may not have existed at all. This birth date (as well as many other aspects of Christianity) was co-opted from earlier religions, which in turn were co-opted from even earlier religions, and so on.
Which other gods were born 12/25? Here are just a couple, along with some other similarities these gods shared with jesus, but by no means are the similarities listed here comprehensive.
Mithras – “He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood, so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved”
Attis – called “Lamb of God”, was born of a virgin, crucified, resurrected.
Anyway, the story of Jesus is borrowed. It originated by people attempting to explain the world by looking up at the sky – trying to read the stars. People have been doing that forever. Science has dispelled these myths. I understand why some people like religion as an emotional support system. I am atheist now, but I was once a born again Christian.
Quote from the original post:
“On top of the fact that these stories of Horus could have been stolen from the writings of the Old Testament and used by Satan to say that the messiah had already surfaced, he wanted more of an explanation for the similarities”
Um, was he just supposed to accept that as fact and quit asking questions? Atheists really like facts, so yeah of course he wanted more of an explanation. This is the kind of logic that religious people use as excuses so they will not have to face the facts. I empathize, but I wish people would look at the facts in an unbiased manner and stop living as if these crazy myths are definitely true.
That’s what I did. I was studying all kinds of religions to prove to myself that my Christianity was the right one. To prove that I would one day really really go to heaven and be happy forever. The more I studied, the more I realized Christianity is just as false as the rest, which was not an easy thing for me to accept at first.
Judy said:
“The believers of lies will one day know without a doubt God’s Word is true…God is sovereign…Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. There is no myth to the gospel.”
I mean no insult to religious people here. If you want to have faith, that’s fine, but you can’t prove there is a God, and comments like these are arrogant. I can just imagine Judy looking up at Jesus, knowing that he approved glowingly of her support in her comment. Ignorance is most certainly bliss. Judy, what makes you right and Jews wrong? Muslims? All the others? Judy, you will never be proven right, but neither will I. When nothing comes after death, you and I will be the same, together in oblivion. If it turns out that you were right against all odds, then say hi to God for me. He never returned any of my calls.
Let me reiterate that I mean not to offend, but I express my opinions freely. While I may think religious people are gravely mistaken, and embracing religion actually causes harm, I know many good religious people. Some bad ones too. Just like everyone else. I only want to know the truth, and sometimes I get frustrated, but I wish everyone peace, happiness, and good health no matter what they believe.
The idea of Jesus and horus being “linked” is laughable, anyone who takes that serious is stupid.
Just think, the “gods” of Egypt are just a bunch of stone statues that are not real, there are some left that are disintegrating back into the sand from whence they came.
God is real, you ignorant people may think you have the answers but clearly you do not, if you did, religion would not exist.
Take something you own, anything, put it in front of you on your desk, now ask yourself, where did this come from and how was it made?
Of course the answer will immediately come to your head but try a different method, try and convince yourself that it appeared out of nothing and it just came into existence, try it as hard as you can.
It’s impossible, because you know that it had a CREATOR and it had a PURPOSE.
Surely now your brain is thinking isn’t it.
Is it that difficult for you to accept that we were made by a higher being? And that we have a purpose for existence?
Here’s another test, try think of a color that does not exist …
Try really hard.
Can you do it? No, the color balance is PERFECT.
Like the balance of earth, the universe is PERFECT, if it wasn’t we would be dead right now.
And before you bring up “global warming”, read the Bible, it might shock you to know it has interesting information about that situation.
Can you guys honestly believe that the universe just came out of nothing? Could you say that some living thing would grow from NOTHING!?!
Scientists have studied human cells and they are so complex, statements of one single human cell is like A WORKING MACHINE, seriously, a tiny little cell and they are still trying to figure it out.
The human body is so perfect, so in-tune in such harmony to every part that works together as one, thats not evolution, thats creation!
Our bodies, our minds, our existence is not a mere coincidence, it’s living proof we infact, do have a living God.
Now ask yourself, if you are so sure we came from monkeys, why have they not evolved to join the human race, surely we came from them right?
Why have we not witnessed any more evolution?
Why has it just suddenly stopped, we have so much technology and great ways of documenting things, why can’t something evolve already?
The fact is, evolution does not exist.
The only thing I have ever seen “evolve” is my sandwich I left in my lunchbox in grade-school that I forgot to take out in summer break, its a lovely shade of green with mushrooms topping it.
There was no caveman, but there was dinosaurs that’s no lie, but the animal kingdom we have today did not come from evolution, there are different species of every animal, different breeds, different colors and it’s amazing.
Just like there are different monkeys, different species of ape, but did we come from them? NO.
An orangutan is an orangutan, a monkey is a monkey, a human is a HUMAN.
So do you really want to believe in evolution by some scientist that sounds like he’s guessing?
How would they know we came from a “big bang”?
Where they there? Did they witness it?
Scientists today are laughing at “darwinism”, because our technology today is PROVING we are way to perfect to come from nothing, making Mr. Charles Darwin look like a loony toon.
Did you know what the human body is made of?
The Bible said it, and there wasn’t even ANY technology back then.
I urge those who seek answers to look to the creator, please think about creation and how things are made.
I once thought like you, I didn’t believe in God and I laughed at the mere thought of him, now I believe in him and am trying to bring those to the truth.
Jesus died for YOU, and he wants YOU to have the gift of eternal life with him.
Only YOU have that decision, God gave you free will, and life itself is YOU deciding where YOU what to end up.
It’s your choice.
Joe, thanks for all that you wrote. I’ve come to some of the same conclusions as you except I’m not ready to abandon the idea of God, altogether. I still have hope that the Creator of all this marvelous universe has devised a plan that is more “marvelous” than the “die and be judged, based on what you believe” idea . . . it doesn’t make much sense. I still have hope that everyone will one day be “redeemed” . . . and if not . . . it will have been a bit of a waste!
ok, i see your point. but it appears to me that your giving these explainations to a child, simple and matter-of-factly. Do you really think that you can answer these questions of a god who was worshipped thousands of years ago just from some internet research? I mean really? If you’ve ever been in a history or religion class, you’ll see that stories change and adapt to the time of the telling. Of course stories steal from eachother, but honestly, I’m a christian and I could care less if some of Jesus’ stories were taking from another. Scholars show that he was a real person and the fact that he may or may not have walked on water or been born to a “real” virgin doesn’t make me believe in the Greatness of God any less. People shouldn’t be scared of the questions and uncertanties in the stories of Jesus’ life and death, worry about your relationship with him because that’s what matters.
Thank you for this post, peetred. It amazes me how easily the Christ-mythers want to believe so badly that the Bible is false and that Christianity is a fraud that they will turn to frauds and misinformation to buoy their opinions. No true Biblical scholar would ever take this Christ-is-Horus nonsense seriously.
The refusal of most people to read and do research and the general decline in American education can account for this kind of abject ignorance of historical Christianity.
Yes, I do think your relationship with God is what matters. But because many of us come from an ideology that tells you that what you believe is the most important thing, and makes you feel sinful if you don’t believe a certain way, it makes it difficult to focus on relationship.
There are many scholars who have written very complicated technical things about this issue, but the basic premise is not that complicated. Tom Harpur has written a few excellent books that outlines these ideas for lay people and scholars.
One of Harpur’s main points is that there are still eternal truths to be learned from Jesus’ stories, even if they are not meant to be taken literally. He outlines how Jesus’ stories could be interpreted in a new way (allegorically) to teach us about our relationship with God.
This has been a bit of a challenge for me and I’m still working my way through it. My former dogmatic self finds it difficult to accept that the New Testament could be interpreted differently from what I am accustomed to. There are times when I feel like dismissing it, altogether.
I will continue to read and inform myself. I will continue to nurture my relationship with God. I know I will never have all the answers, but I believe that my relationship with God will continue to be good.
hi everyone, this may help some of you who really hope to find the truth, first- always require proof of documentation from a “sacred text or a religious text” before considering any claim as proof. Jesus is real,he’s unique,devine and the only true savior but i wont waste your time with trying to defend him who does not have to be defended. i read a lot of the sacred and the religous text from the actual religions and cults hoping to verify my beliefs. believe me it took an extensive amount of time and prayer. what i found was this. there are religious sacred documents and then there are personal publications by authors or whomever looking to do whatever. the actual religious text that we’re discussing have more dissimilarities than similarities. horus birthday was actually celebrated in the month of khoiak/ oct /november not december 25. horus never had 12 disciples he had 4 demigods and 12 signs of the zodiac, he was not crucified in fact there is no proof he died and no proof of him being buried in a tomb, his mother was not a virgin her name was isis and his father was osiris, she bought osirus back to life and had sex with him and conceived horus. set(the egyptian equivalent of the devil) tried to kill horus the baby so isis gave him to the virgin goddess uazit for protection. horus was not a messiah and was not ressurected as Jesus was, as a baby a serpent bit him and the god thoth brought him back to life but not as a savior, horus had no sermon on the mount. satans name was lucifer unlike “set”. horus raised no one from the dead, his mother isis did, she raised his father briefly from the dead. horus was never baptized theres no proof of this in any sacred or religious text, many relions take sacred baths but not baptisms. most of the claims against Jesus were made by people who put something from the claims of atheist on the net or in books and watched while people hungrily ate it up like satan designed them to do. sacred_text.com and thedevineevidence.com has all the true historical religious text that you can use to make your own conclusion. Jesus loves you and he wants you to be saved not decieved. i love all you in christ Jesus. its more than being right or wrong about names, dates and similarities. its about asking yourself what do you need out of life. its about the direction and condition of your heart. if you truly search for truth, read the religous text instead of blogs and post for real spiritual guidance. Steve Whiting, bigfloridasteve@yahoo.com , jacksonville florida . open to talk to anyone about Christ. remember, use sacred documents not qoutes from personal books or writings. use the net dont abuse the net.
Ladies and Gentlemen. the truth is: There is a god, one supreme deity. this very same god has sent humanity a devine message, a message that preaches truth, and a specific WAY OF LIFE. . . this EXACT SAME message was preached through Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed. . . as well as many others. religion is a man made concept. living this preached way of life is how we can all overcome satan. If you follow this message, you are righteous. We Muslims, christians, and Jews are one in the same. The bible has been changed and manipulated, the Kabala was written by corrupt rabiis in Babel under the influence of the babylonian empire. BUT god has sworn to protect the the Quran, hence it has not been manipulated, and cannot be for it is protected by god. the Quran entails the truth, just as the old testament and the torah once did. im not a preacher, nor am i a rabii, or sheikh, im a college student who has looked into this, and have only found pure and undeniable truth in the quran. i urge you all to do a little research, and make of it what you will. thank you. BY THE WAY, ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION, IT IS A WAY OF LIFE. ASK ANY SHEIKH, PRIEST OR RABII
There is too much misinformation here concerning Acharya’s work in the original post:
“His other criticism, like mine, is that she uses very dated sources (19th Century)”
If by saying that since she used 19th century sources she is totally reliant upon them, you’d be completely wrong. It’s part of history – of course she mentions them. She actually STARTS her investigation there to see WHY they were saying those things. She researched where they were getting their information and what she found was astonishing to say the least. She has sources that range from several thousand years old up to modern times. So those types of remarks are simply not true.
You should be aware of “professional jealousy” – Dr. Robert Price & Acharya have made-up. He has written the foreword to her recent book “Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ.”
Richard Carrier has never actually read Acharya’s works. He says at the top of his Luxor article that he was responding to an e-mail which sent him a short paragraph from her book “Christ Conspiracy” concerning Luxor. In his hasty professional jealousy he mucked it all up – “in “skimming” Brunner’s text, as he puts it, Carrier has mistakenly dealt with the substantially different Hatshepsut text (Brunner’s “IV D”), demonstrating an egregious error in garbling the cycles, when in fact we are specifically interested in the Luxor narrative (IV L).”
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/luxor.html
Carrier has yet to take responsibility for his monumental error or issue an apology to Acharya – which he should do.
Her new book “Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection” proves all of the Egyptian contentions found in the official version of Zeitgeist part 1 and more. Christ in Egypt will be around 600 pages and contains nearly 2,400 footnotes/citations, utilizing over 900 sources that include books by respected publishers and peer-reviewed journals. There will also be dozens of illustrations. http://stellarhousepublishing.com/christ-in-egypt-table-of-contents.html
If you want a shorter e-book version there’s always
“The Companion Guide to ZEITGEIST Part 1, E-Book”
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitgeist.html
All the best,
Aziz
Oh, how the debate goes round and round. I just want to make one point. If you are good because you fear punishment or want a reward, are you truly good? No. This is my main problem with religion.
If I adhere to all of the definitions of “good” in the bible, but do not fall to my knees and praise “god”, am I going to “hell”?
If the answer (according to the zealots) is yes, then what does that say about “god”? To me, it says that god is an ego maniac and has no interest in good or bad, he just has interest in being worshiped.
I think if Jesus were to come back today, he would be disgusted with the state of religion. In fact, he would probably be shot down by the vatican or any other organized, money making religious organization, before he could speak for himself.
Let me close with this: The philosophy of jesus does not need the bible to be true (which it isn’t) in order to be valid.
ps. Truth777, you make me laugh. Who’s to say what is “perfect”? You sound very arrogant. For example the human body is hardly perfect, amazing yes, but perfect?. If it were, we would not have cancer or deformities or heart disease ect. In fact I would argue that “perfection” only comes about by way of a natural process of elimination (of the inefficient). Anything that is directly created has imperfections. But alas, I know I will never convert anyone. Especially people who take hearsay and opinion as fact and fact as hearsay or opinion.
There is no proof that Jesus ever even existed. The only gospels written about him, were done so several hundred years later, and not by anyone who was there. There are no Roman records; this is a lie. There is proof that a book that combines some hebrew stories with some stories about a man named Jesus exists. Just because the fairytale called the bible says it’s true, doesn’t mean it is.
I find it absolutely laughable that you people actually think SATAN is out there creating fake Jesus’s 2000 years before he was to be born. Give me a break. Once you accept that it’s a fantastic lie (much like Santa Clause) you will sleep much better at night without the constant fear of Hell.
I’m sure this entry will be deleted, though, because Christians don’t like anything that may shake their “faith”. “Faith” is talked about so much, because it takes a whole lot of faith to buy into it, and if you doubt it a little bit, it will start gnawing at you. They don’t want you to admit the truth to yourself so they eliminate any thing that may put a chink in the “faith” armor. If Christianity is so powerful it shouldn’t require faith.
The one thing that sience can never debunk is the creation of the everything. there is no begining and no end. there is just the oneness of all. i do have a problem with how the religious institutes relay this to be. i do not acsept the fact that man documented the truth throughout history. everybody to this day has agendas. i can not see how anybody with a logical mind (creation of god) can belive there is nothing bigger and greater in all this mass of life. i just do not trust the way the authorities use the power over peoples awairness of some kind of creator. the bible in itself is contradictory and missleads people in to fearing life.
how is it that a christian religion that premotes love and peace started and was built on war and murder of the so called unbelievers (were they not suppose to convert rather the kill). chritianity was and enforced religion on the roman people how is that a religion of choise.seek god and all things good in your own way (the right way) after all we are all made of the same building blocks of life that is found throughtout the cosmos. Jah is found in everything not a seperate phisical creature living else where one day to return and judge us, he is you, he is part of us all. if all you so called christians have not yet percieved this in it fullest capacity it is HIGH TIME YOU START, NOT BY SEARCHING THE INTERNET FOR ANSWERS AND ARGUMENTS BUT YOUR OWN MIND. thanks for reading
Truth777
Then please explain this:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299857,00.html
Also, truth777 you really need to research evolution a bit more before you start a debate up that alley.
I wont comment on everything but a few things…..
1- Scientist are not mocking evolution as you put it. In fact a large majority of world scientists accept evolution as fact and can actually replicate it and “prove” it to a degree in a lab environment. In science, nothing is ever “proven” as you left it. We know gravity exists, yet science refers to it as the THEORY of gravitation.
There are a great deal more scientist who believe evolution than creationism. The fact is, evolution is presenting more facts every day, and creationism still has a big zero in the category of cold hard facts.
Creationism, in its very definition, implies that there is a Creator. Like he has been proven or something. Since there is no PROOF that a creator exists, why should I even listen to a creation theory? Its believing in hovering Jetson’s like cars. How can you really believe that they exist in the physical world when the guy creating them doesnt exist?
2- The universe is not as “oderly and perfect” as you may think. Look beyond our solar system. Nothing but random chaos. There is no order to it. It just exists. I just exist. You just exist. Why not just be happy that we are all alive and in existance instead of trying to explain things that we really do not know.
Also, please present to me ANY evidence of a creator. And dont say the standard “Look at all of nature and creation and tell me that you dont believ in God!”
Dont use that as an answer because until you can prove to me that there is a Creator, then nothing can be considered “creation”.
You are putting the cart way before the horse! Trying to prove something exists by saying something else exists.
There IS a Mississippi River. But just because that is true and exists doesnt mean that the fictional characters Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer are real.
But the Mississippi river is real! Therfore by Christian logic, Ton and Huck must be real as well. Since they are in the book also.
Such nonsense.
Steve….
To set the record straight, as far as what history teaches us, Horus never did die in any Egyptian tale. The Pharoah was considered to be the living embodiment of Horus.
Just so you guys know. So Christians can use that in their next debate =P
Good luck answering the other stuff. lol
Great article! I just found these references today. After studying Biblicl Archaeology at my university, I found the references intriguing. However,after reading your article and arguments I can see where the Horus comparison is extremely flawed. Thanks for putting so much work into researching it!
Thank you for this. Yahoo! Answers and YouTube did it to me again, and I allowed them to make me doubt. This was really bothering me yesterday, and I was really struggling with my faith last night. It was very difficult for me to say my nightly prayer (I felt guilty,) but this will help me a lot!
Again, thank you!
I just realized that you copied and pasted this from the other article. I feel like a dummy now..w/e, I’m tired.
Anyway, thanks for making this available, and thanks to the other guy for all the research!
Why should you feel guilty because you are “doubting?” God gave you a brain to think, and sometimes you will question things that are important. Does God put a limit on questionning? Is anything too “sacred?” to be questioned? I doubt it. I think God is pleased when we question because it means we care and that it is the way to grow.
No matter how much ANYBODY thinks they know, in the end, God will just look at us, smile, and say, “nice try, but I’m a little too complex to be put in the box of human understanding.”
And where is your scripture to back up that statement?
I’m sure I could find many verses in the Bible to argue that God does not want us to live with a spirit of fear; that he is a kind Father who cares for us; that he understand when we undergo trials and tribulation; that we may want to question Him when things go wrong; that he wants us to grow spiritually by learning and knowing more about Him through nature and many other sources; that we only see partial truths in this world and that we will all stand in awe once we see Him.
I guess the smile comes from my own thoughts of how a loving Father would behave when he saw his child in this state.
The problem you are having with my view is that it undermines some of the more “judgemental” aspect of God that you believe in. The reason I don’t subscribe to that theology is that I don’t believe that you can define/describe God using a finite number of Bible verses . . . verses written by fallible men who had certain interest and views to promote . . . and who have been proven wrong many times i.e. the end of the world was expected to be near by several of them, and we are still here!
Various groups have tried to do this (The Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Fundamentalists, etc.) and they have only succeeded in giving religion a bad name, just like the Islamic Fundamentalists are giving Islam a bad name. Of course, everyone in this camp believe they are right . . . but of course, noone can be totally correct.
There are too many examples of why the Bible cannot and should not be taken literally i.e.
I do believe that God meant for us to use our brains and hearts to find truth, and I don’t believe the ultimate truths are found in one book put together by a group of fallible men.
You are a good candidate to read Earl Doherty’s book entitled, “Challenging the Verdict; A Cross-Examination of Lee Stroble’s, ‘The Case for Christ.”
In his book, he makes a very good case for the fact that a) the Bible is clearly not to be taken literally because it contains many OBVIOUS contradictions b) Jesus did not exist as an historical figure
Just for the record, I use to think I had it all figured out, too. I went to Bible College, Seminary, and was in ministry for a few years. I now realized I was only given one narrow view and that it was false. I wish that the Jesus story were true, but the evidence is simply not there.
It seems obvious to me that the Jesus story was created by putting together a series of MANY ideas that were popular and accessible at that time. Horus is only one of them, and is actually very minor.(Google Donysus (Bacchus), Dionysos, or Mithras to see parallel’s with Jesus). Acharya S’s book, “The Christ Conspiracy,” outlines many more parallels and also how points out where some of our biblical stories came from i.e. the mythical Peter . . . at heaven’s gate (ever wonder where that story came from . . . not in the NT)
I left the Catholic Church, when I was 18. I still remember being told by my Protestant brethern that I had left paganism. They pointed out that the worship of Mary was an adaptation of the worship of a the goddess Isis, and that there was even a phallic symbol(also a symbol for the mythical Peter) in the middle of the Vatican, that the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced, etc. What my Protestant friends didn’t mention was that even the story of Jesus and the characters in the NT are taken from pagan roots.
Earl Doherty sums is up nicely when he states:
“TAKEN TOGETHER WITH THEIR SACRAMENTALISM, THEIR RITITUALS OF BAPTISM AND SACRED MEALS, PLUS THE WORKINGS OF THEIR SALVATION SYSTEMS, CHRISTIANITY AND THE MYSTERIES CAN BE SEEN AS CUT FROM THE SAME CLOTH.”
(The only defense for the influence today is that the devil invented all these traditions in the various religions before Christianity as a counterfeit to the real thing . . . few people would believe this, but then again, some people believe the world is flat and that smoking is not bad for you)
Had I known where my thoughts were going to lead me a few years ago, I would have been afraid. Afraid of “losing my salvation” and of being without God. What I am finding is that I have been “set free.” I not only feel better for myself, I feel relieved for the billions of people who never had a chance to be fundamentalist Christians. I see how each person is a child of God and has God in them (okay, there are some exceptions, but I don’t think we can judge!)
On this Father’s Day holiday, I would like to think that my children can approach me because of their love and respect, not because of their fear of me. This is developing a relationship that is much closer than one based on fear and authoritarian rule. I think God wants the same.
Having said all this, I am still open to being corrected or enlightened. I would love to find a book or an article which refute Doherty or Acharya’s views in a credible manner. All I have seen so far is vague accusations that they did not really give the other side a chance to present their views and that their sources are too old. I would like to see discussions focusing on specific points.